Episode 14: Managing Child Anxiety with Dawn Friedman

In this episode of the Exceptional Girls Podcast, host Julie Withrow is joined by Dawn Friedman, founder of Open Book Parenting, to talk about child anxiety and how families can navigate the challenges it presents.

Anxiety and anxious avoidance can be tricky to manage, especially in neurodivergent kids. Dawn is quick to point out that parents aren't to blame and needn't feel ashamed if they've made some missteps along the way. But they do have a responsibility to help their children overcome avoidance and get to readiness. This episode will give them a taste of how to do that.

🎧 Listen in as Dawn shares:

• Why anxiety isn’t the real problem—avoidance is
• How parents unintentionally reinforce their child’s anxiety
• Simple steps to start helping kids overcome their fears
• What parents need to know as they support their anxious children

About Dawn Friedman:

Dawn Friedman, MSEd, is the founder of Open Book Parenting, an online education and coaching platform for parents of anxious children and teens. A licensed clinical counselor, Dawn has more than 30 years of experience working with children and families in educational, clinical, and community settings. She holds a master’s degree in Clinical Counseling from the University of Dayton and a post-graduate certification in Infant-Toddler Mental Health from Arcadia University. A sought-after speaker, Dawn has presented at national and regional conferences, delivered trainings and workshops to counselors, educators, and parenting professionals across the country, and has appeared on radio programs, including New Hampshire Public Radio’s Word of Mouth. Dawn has also been published in outlets including Yoga Journal, Salon, and Greater Good, and has contributed to multiple books on parenting, adoption, and family life. She lives in the Poconos with her family, where she continues to support parents, children, and professionals in understanding and treating childhood anxiety. To learn more, visit www.openbookparenting.com

About the Exceptional Girls Podcast:

If you know and care deeply about a girl who learns, thinks, and experiences the world differently, I invite you to journey with me as we learn how we as parents, adults, and role models can help her understand, self-advocate, accept, and love herself — just as she is. To learn more, visit www.exceptionalgirlspodcast.com.

Transcript

Julie Withrow (Host) (00:06):

You are listening to the Exceptional Girls Podcast, and I'm your host Julie Withrow. As a mom who raised a twice exceptional young daughter, I know both the joys and the challenges of parenting a child who thinks, learns and experiences the world differently. I also know how lonely it can feel and how long it can take to get answers. I created this podcast to increase awareness, understanding, and acceptance of female neurodivergence. In doing so, I hope to smooth the path for other families. Please join me for expert interviews and candid conversations about giftedness A DHD, autism, dyslexia, and more. Let's learn together how we can make sure our exceptional girls feel seen, supported, and celebrated.

(00:56):

In this episode of the Exceptional Girls Podcast, I'm joined by Dawn Friedman, the founder of Open Book Parenting. We're digging deep into the topic of child anxiety and how families can navigate the challenges It presents a licensed clinical counselor. Dawn has more than 30 years of experience working with children and families in educational, clinical and community settings As sought after speaker, she has presented at national and regional conferences, delivered trainings and workshops across the country and appeared on radio programs including New Hampshire public radio's, word of mouth. Dawn's also been published in outlets including Yoga Journal Salon and Greater Good and has contributed to multiple books on parenting, adoption and family life. Dawn holds a master's degree in clinical counseling from the University of Dayton and a postgraduate certification and infant toddler mental health from Arcadia University. She lives in the Poconos with her family. Now let's listen in as Dawn shares what parents need to know about anxiety and how they can support their anxious children. Hi Dawn. Thanks so much for being with us today on the Exceptional Girls Podcast.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (02:16):

Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Julie Withrow (Host) (02:19):

Yeah, so today we're going to talk about anxiety, and I think for a lot of our listeners, this will be a familiar topic. As parents, many of our kids may have this challenge. I know that my child, Remy has dealt with anxiety for the better part of their life and has a formal diagnosis of general anxiety disorder. I think it's also challenging as a parent to explain that to other people who maybe don't understand what it really feels like to have this sense of anxiety and to feel anxious a lot of the time, and perhaps some of our other listeners also deal with this when they're talking about their kid or trying to share what their kid is going through. So I thought it might be helpful to start by talking about what anxiety is or maybe what it is and what it isn't, or when we're talking about anxiety in this context, what separates this type of anxiety from just feeling anxious? So maybe we start there.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (03:25):

Sure. So of course we all feel anxious. Anxiety is a normal emotion. It's a necessary emotion. So if I'm anxious before a podcast, I'm going to prepare for it. I'm going to make sure I know my stuff. However, when we're talking about anxiety, clinical levels of anxiety, perhaps my anxiety gets so bad that I'm able to even face preparing for the podcast. Maybe I don't show up for the podcast. Maybe I'm not sleeping the night before because I'm so worried about it. Maybe I'm nauseous and throwing up and can't do the podcast. So anxiety is not just feeling anxious, it's feeling anxious to such a degree that it limits my functioning.

Julie Withrow (Host) (04:13):

And that's a great segue to some of the things that we really want to talk about, and that is that when we think about anxiety and our kids who do have a challenge with anxiety, your contention is that anxiety really isn't the problem. The problem is the avoidance that comes along with the anxiety. So can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (04:37):

Sure. So like I said, we're all going to be anxious at certain times. So lots of teenagers are really anxious about learning to drive and we want them to be a little bit anxious. We want them to be cautious. We want them to be worried enough about getting into an accident that they check their mirrors, they put on their seatbelt. However, lots of our kids are so anxious about the possibility that they are frozen and their life is in some way limited. So they are unable to do things that they want to do and are otherwise capable of doing because the anxiety is so big and unmanageable. So anxiety is not the issue. Anxious avoidance is really the issue.

Julie Withrow (Host) (05:20):

Yeah. So you say that many families fall into these patterns of anxious avoidance. Can you talk a little bit more about that share? What are some of the ways that as parents we may unconsciously contribute to these types of patterns?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (05:37):

Yeah, we definitely are, and in fact, the research says it's 94 to 99% of us, and I think that 1%, we just caught them on a good day, and I have an anxious child. I have a child with clinical levels of anxiety. I myself have social anxiety and I can see how things that work for a child without that kind of anxious brain don't work for a clinically anxious child, which is to say it's not your fault. The things that work for non-anxious kids just don't work for anxious kids. It's very counterintuitive. So if you have a non-anxious child and they're worried about something and they come to you and say, mom, I'm really afraid about insert situation here, and you say, honey, I think you've got it. Look at how you've prepared for it. You can do this difficult thing, and that kid says, thanks for cheering me on, I'm going to go face it.

(06:30):

Your anxious child might get stuck in the loop of needing you to hold their hand through it or to protect them from their feelings that are coming up. So we might say, Hey, you know what? Stay home from school. You need a mental health day. That's fine. A non-anxious child will say, great, that's what I needed. I had that reset and go to school. The anxious child may get stuck. That staying home might actually be a pattern of avoidance that contributes to more avoidance in school, even to the point where maybe then they're not able to go to school.

Julie Withrow (Host) (07:05):

Yeah, I think what's challenging about that too is speaking from personal experience, I have my own anxiety struggles

(07:14):

Similar to my own child, and I never had a diagnosis of general anxiety disorder or anything like that, but when my child was diagnosed, it did bring up in me these feelings of familiarity of how I've also had just this sort of unexplainable sense of dread or fear that I couldn't really put a name to. So I think that makes it very hard as a parent too, because it triggers us as well. When our kid acts that way, then we're triggered by it as well and it stirs up our own anxiety. And if we haven't really figured out that in ourselves or how to manage that in ourselves, well now we're swirling with the kid. We're all in the anxiety swirl now.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (08:07):

Yeah, it's anxiety squared. And a lot of the times parents will say to me, I don't know where my child gets their anxiety. I'm not anxious. But the more we talk, they are anxious. They're anxious about their child's anxiety, and when we're thinking about the avoidance, so our child is avoiding that feeling, this feels terrible. I'm getting stomach aches. A lot of us don't like ourselves. That's the way anxiety shows up is by saying, you're stupid. You're dumb. Nobody likes you, and your child is feeling that way and that feels terrible for them. And then we're witnessing them feel that way, and that feels terrible to us because we love them and no wonder then we help them avoid. We don't want them to do something that is so terrifying and difficult. And so in our efforts to protect them, we end up creating more of that anxiety avoidance. It's totally understandable. What I find really interesting in the research, it shows the parents that are most likely to get stuck in these loops are parents with a great deal of empathy, which is such a wonderful quality. We just need to start noticing these patterns so we can use that empathy to support them instead of helping them avoid.

Julie Withrow (Host) (09:26):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I want to talk for a minute. Not everybody may have a diagnosis or the awareness that their child has anxiety,

Julie Withrow (Host) (09:39):

But you talked about something like stomach aches. What are some of the signs that your child may be dealing with anxiety if you don't already have that information?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (09:50):

Well, I used to say in my clinical practice when I was in person, I worked with kids in teens, not just adults, and I said, every kid that I see in my practice is either anxious or angry, and all the angry kids are really anxious. So anxiety can look like stomach aches and headaches. Those are the most common somatic symptoms for kids. But it can also look like impatience, meltdowns, tantrums, lashing out in anger. A lot of these kids trash their rooms. It can look like depression. Depression and anxiety go hand in hand. It can look like poor and it can look like perfectionism. So a lot of high achieving very perfectionist kids. I'm screening them for anxiety.

Julie Withrow (Host) (10:38):

Can you talk a little bit more about the perfectionism piece and how that and anxiety go hand in hand?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (10:44):

This one is really tricky because it is a pro-social form of anxiety. An example I always use is I was working with a young woman who's 15 or 16 and she was having terrible stomach aches related to her very heavy course load, and she was one of those kids that took so many honor and IB classes that she had above a four point, but she was suffering a lot. She was staying up really late. She wasn't having time with friends. Like I said, she had these terrible stomach aches. She was so afraid of failure that she was constantly over preparing and over challenging herself. As part of the clinical picture, we decided that she was not going to take quite the same heavy load at school, but when she went to school to tell her teachers, next semester, I'm going to cut back on honors, her teachers really pressured her to show up in those classes anyway, and one of them said to her, but I need you there because you set the standard for the rest of the class. So to get her out of that perfectionist loop was really difficult. She was getting so rewarded for it.

Julie Withrow (Host) (11:52):

I can see how that would be difficult because perfectionism can look like overachievement, which looks very positive on the outside, and that can be kind of challenging. But perhaps one way to suss out that your child may be dealing with anxiety is if they are not pursuing things that they want to pursue, if there's something that they want to do, but you see them holding themselves back from it, that might be one example, right? Because that's the avoidance thing that you're talking about. So that might be one clue as well. Yeah.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (12:32):

Yes. And with perfectionist kids also look for kids that are crumpling up papers. If they erase holes in their papers, if they're ones who, if they're putting together Legos, they destroy it. As soon as they've got it together, it's not good enough for them. That's that perfectionism. But again, they often have parents who think, oh, my kid just has really high standards. So you have to look and say, are they enjoying life more or less? I mean, we all have bad days, we all have struggles, but is this a child who generally is enjoying themselves or are they sort of driven to do these things? Maybe they would like to watch a show with you, but they tell you I I need to keep studying. Do they really need to keep studying or do they maybe actually need to shut the book and come watch a show with you?

Julie Withrow (Host) (13:22):

Yeah, I can really relate to that personally as an adult today, as someone who has a hard time just relaxing because I feel this need to keep producing, producing, doing, and I know it's anxiety driven just because I've come to that awareness. But yeah, it also is, it's very tied to perfectionism. I can see that connection. But yeah, there is this need to just keep going. You're trying to kind of outrun the anxious feelings too. If you keep busy enough, then perhaps you won't feel that anxiety. Yes.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (14:06):

And it's that idea that we can control outcomes.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (14:10):

Because anxiety craves certainty the promise that things will be okay. And if you cannot promise me that, or I cannot promise myself that through my behavior, my perfectionism, et cetera, then I'll just withdraw and refuse to do it. So underachieving kids, sometimes, I'd say often, but your mileage may vary, is a perfectionist kid who has just given up a kid who says, if I can't do it perfectly, I'm just not going to do it. That's a kid who's got some perfectionism and anxiety.

Julie Withrow (Host) (14:42):

Yeah. Well, and I think when you're talking about neurodivergent kids, just like with any time we're talking about neurodivergent kids, this can be very hard to tease apart from giftedness or ADHD or certain types of autism spectrum disorder, it's all, some of these things sound like giftedness. They sound like ADHD. It can be very hard to tease it apart, and I'm not so sure it's necessary that we need to, because I think the point that we're going to talk about today is more about if your child is missing out on things that they want to do, regardless of what that reason is, whether it's anxiety or anything else, let's talk about how we can give them strategies so that they're not avoiding the things that they want to do.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (15:32):

Yes. And I love that you said that because very often when I'm talking to families, let me just be really clear, I'm against parent blame. So when I talk about what parents are doing, it's not in a blame way. It's just, Hey, this is a pattern that comes up for all of us who have anxious kids. But one of the things I see is parents will say, but I think that's just their aspect of neurodiversity, and so I don't need to address it. Instead of saying, yeah, it is an aspect of their neurodiversity, which will shape how you address it, but it needs to be addressed.

Julie Withrow (Host) (16:09):

Exactly. So let's talk about that, right? Regardless of where it's coming from, I don't think we need to get so hung up on the root cause, but once we are ready to help our child start to deal with their fears or anxieties or whatever this is, where should we begin? What's a good place to start? What are some of the ways that we can start to help our kid reengage with those things they're missing out on that we know they want to do?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (16:40):

This is tricky, and so it's always hard to talk about these kinds of generalities when I know this is very, very personal. So I'm not going to say, if your child does X, you need to immediately address that. Let's not do that.

(16:54):

Instead, let's look and say, where is your child missing out? Where are they missing out on something that they either want to do and are afraid to do or they would enjoy if they let themselves? That's one thing. But the other thing is where are you missing out? For example, I have a lot of parents who aren't able to say, go to book club in the evening because they have a child with separation anxiety. Now, if you ask the child, because bring the child to me in my office and say, my child won't let me go to book club. Please make my child, let me go to book club. And I'm like, you know what? You need to just go to book club and then we need to have a plan to deal with how that is for your child. So the parent needs to change their behavior, not the child. We cannot necessarily wait for the child to be ready. We need to make a plan to gain some readiness. So it's either where the child is missing out or where you are missing out. It needs to be someplace accessible where somebody is motivated for change, and often that person is going to be you.

Julie Withrow (Host) (18:01):

Yeah. Well, yeah, and that may not be the answer people want to hear, right?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (18:06):

I know it's a hard sell, but a thing that comes up way more is kids who still need parents to lay down with them. And I'm talking 10, 11 and 12 year olds, and again, I don't have any judgment about this. If you're okay with laying down with your kid, you keep doing it. But very often the parents are like, I've had it up to here. And I say, well, then you are going to have to make the change because when I ask your child, they say, the problem is not that I need my parent to sleep with me, it's that my parent doesn't want to.

Julie Withrow (Host) (18:40):

So as parents start to do this work, because in many cases it may be an inside job.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (18:47):

Yes.

Julie Withrow (Host) (18:48):

Right. Is it best for them to seek the help focus more on themselves first versus the child? Where do they get started with that?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (19:04):

Yes. I do believe no matter what, the parent is going to have to do their work because these patterns they sneak in,

(19:14):

And the most common kind of parenting pitfall we get stuck in, these are the patterns that perpetuate anxiety, is reassurance is telling our child that it'll be okay. It'll be fine. You can do this. We get stuck in that loop. And I use my own daughter as an example with her permission that in middle school, she really was struggling with all the big social demands, and she would come home and say, I said this to so-and-so. Do you think that they're mad at me, but do you think that they're mad at me? But I said it like this? What if I had said it? And she would keep coming back for me to reassure, oh, she's probably not mad at you, and even if she is mad at you and all of these things. And I had to stop giving her that reassurance and let her sit with the uncertainty.

(20:01):

The truth is I can't make any promises now. This triggered all of my own social anxiety, all of my own fears for her, for middle school. I had to take care of myself and take care of those big feelings for me in order to hang in there with her. And for me, anxiety comes out as irritability. So that's true for lots of kids, and it's true for lots of parents. So I would find myself getting frustrated with her and getting annoyed with her and needing to just take breaks from her, which also felt terrible, and then I felt guilty, and then I'd overcompensate and do more reassuring. So yeah, I had to take care of me before I was going to be able to support her in dealing with her anxiety. And now when those feelings come up in other areas, I know exactly what they are and I know how to step away, step out of it.

Julie Withrow (Host) (20:49):

Yeah, I think that's so important. As parents, there is no handbook for this stuff. And many times what our children are going through, we spend so much time focusing on them and wanting to get them the help they need, but it's sort of like when you're on the airplane and they say you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before them. I think that this is one of those classic cases of that where you have to take care of yourself first before you can be able to take care of them. And this is one of those cases where you have to recognize in yourself what's getting triggered by the situation, and you really have to be able to take care of yourself in that. Otherwise you're just going to project it all onto your kid and project it onto the situation. But as you do that, as an adult, how do you do that work?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (21:49):

Well, part of it is understanding again, that this is the anxiety of when it's showing up for you.

(21:55):

So again, here's my daughter. She's really worried about middle school. I'm really worried about her. She's really struggling socially. It's triggering all my social stuff. I notice how it feels. I notice how much I want to run from this feeling and I want to help her escape the feeling, and I have to learn how to take care of that feeling. And fortunately, therapists go to therapy. So I had a therapist where I was able to work on mindfulness tools, work on being able to name the feelings for myself so I didn't confuse them with her feelings, who helped me learn how to sit with that. Yuck. As I learned to do that, I then was able to teach my daughter because we are having the same experience as our child in some way. And I think that parenting is just, it's an opportunity for growth, man. So the more that we can grow ourselves, that's our purpose in this parenting relationship, the more we can offer that growth to our children. If we just tell them, Hey, don't be anxious unless we've done that work ourselves, we know that's not how it works. That telling someone to calm down doesn't calm them down,

(23:06):

That helping them avoid does not help them go towards, but we have to do that for ourselves first, and that's hard work.

Julie Withrow (Host) (23:14):

It is. And maybe one of the big takeaways from this is that if you are particularly triggered by your child's anxiety, perhaps it's because you have anxiety of your own that you need to pay attention to. I mean, I know for me, that was my experience. I just never really put a name to what it was that I was experiencing until I saw my child experiencing and was so triggered by it. 

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (23:42):

Yeah. And when we got on here, you said, how was I said, oh, I'm really tired because my daughter, my wonderful daughter, she's now 21. She is doing great. She handles her anxiety well, she's still an anxious person, but she started college this week, and so we are exhausted the whole family because the anxiety is higher for all of us. We are coping with it beautifully, but it is an effort, and this is lifelong work. It's the opportunity that parenting gives us to just keep learning, just keep learning.

Julie Withrow (Host) (24:18):

It's true. So that's another question that might be worth asking, and that's slow work. This is one of those, it's a journey more than a destination things. So for parents who are going through this with their kids, who are starting this work, what does progress look like? How can you tell if progress is being made or how do you stay in it? Do you have any pearls of wisdom around that?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (24:55):

I think we really have to reorient ourselves towards small steps because we think, and actually this, even therapists sometimes think that successful anxiety treatment means no more anxiety, and that's insane. That would never happen. So instead, successful treatment means we are able to label anxiety. That's something. So when you're able to go, oh, this is anxiety, that's some success. It doesn't mean you don't feel it. You maybe still have a stomach ache. You maybe still want to run away from home, but you're able to stop and go. I think this is anxiety. So my daughter will sometimes say, I woke up and thought I hated myself, and then I realized actually it's just my first day at work and I'm anxious about it. That's a success story. It's also when we see our child's lives start opening up a little bit more that they're able to do more.

(25:49):

Maybe they're not quite ready to spend the night at grandma's, but maybe they can change into their jammies there before you pick them up. That would be a success story. A kid who's scared to order in a restaurant, who's able to hold up the menu and point at what they want, that would be success. It doesn't all have to be perfect. It's just as we're moving towards them having more opportunity, that success and anxiety is a lifetime's work. If we have an anxious brain, we're going to be anxious and we will have to revisit those skills that we're learning over time again and again and again at each new stage of development. So your anxious second grader be an anxious 10th grader will be an anxious 47-year-old getting a new job. It's just how it works.

Julie Withrow (Host) (26:40):

Yeah, I think that's really important to get okay with, right? It's kind of like what we resist persists. So the more we can name it and just let it be there and not let it control us, which is easier said than done sometimes, but just naming it sometimes takes away the power and just acknowledging that it's there, but not letting it be in control so much. Sometimes that acknowledgement is really all it takes just to kind of take some of the power out of it.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (27:17):

Yes, absolutely. I was just talking to an adult client who said, but this feels terrible. And I said, yes, it does feel terrible. And she said, when does it stop? And I say, it doesn't, but it stops mattering. You go, oh, this feels terrible. Yeah, that's what I expect now. And then it doesn't have as so much power when we try to push it away, it comes back stronger. It thinks we're not listening. It's like, Hey, I want you to notice that we're anxious over here. If you just go, I got it. Yeah, you're anxious. You think everything is awful. That's exactly right. Then it's not as real because you understand it's just anxiety talking.

Julie Withrow (Host) (27:58):

Are there any techniques, even somatic things or other things that you use with your clients to help them? Because feelings are just feelings. If we can just let the feelings move through us sometimes that is also pretty powerful practice. Are there things like that that you use with your clients to help them so the anxiety isn't so white knuckle having so much power over them?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (28:26):

Yeah, actually, the thing I use the most often, it's not somatic necessarily. I think that you could do it this way, but most of the parents that I work with are really thoughtful, involved, really committed parents, and most of them parent through conversation.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (28:44):

So they're used to discussing and diagnosing and digging in and understanding their child's anxiety. It's what I do too. However, that can perpetuate the anxiety because sometimes anxiety doesn't have a reason. It's just anxiety. So the more we say to our child, why are you worried about school? The more they'll be like, well, actually, and then they'll come up with things. They're not lying. They're trying to make sense of it. Anxiety is sometimes just free floating anxiety. So what I tell parents to do, and with little kids, we call it worry jail, where we'll actually maybe even build a jail or draw a jail, but we limit the time. We talk about anxiety. So we say we make an appointment and we say, we're going to talk about anxiety for 15 minutes at this time, usually not just before bed, please, because that'll really rev them up sometime where there's some room to feel anxious and then set a timer and let your child talk as much as they want.

(29:42):

You can write it down in that jail, they can put it in a journal, they can talk your ear off, and then at the end of the timer done, that's it. So they've expressed everything they need to express about their anxiety, and then if they bring it up again, you say, no, we already had our anxious time. We'll have it again tomorrow. That way you're giving them permission to talk to you, but you're not letting the anxiety discussion run the show and you set that boundary. We'll talk about it again at our next anxious appointment, but we're done today. If we do it at a time, like I said, not at bedtime, then maybe they will need to go and move some of that anxiety through their body. Sometimes with little kids, the reason we do a jail is they like to then lock those anxious stories up or slam shut a journal or leave the room or whatever you need to do to indicate, and now we are done. Anxieties had its time, and now we're on to the rest of our day.

Julie Withrow (Host) (30:41):

Yeah, I love that idea. I know for me and I know this is true of my own kiddo—who also just started college last week, so I feel your anxiety—we need to verbally process stuff, so we kind need to say it, but we also have a tendency to ruminate. So there is something to be said for putting some guardrails around that we have this much time, we can barf it all out there and then done, right, because yeah, otherwise this rumination will be perpetual. So I love the idea of just, okay, we have this much time to do it and then we're done. Then we can move on. And with little kids or grownups, the whole spectrum of wherever you're at in that age group, I think that can be a really powerful exercise. And I do think particularly with neurodivergent kids or people, individuals, we like to intellectualize things. We want to analyze it, and we want to figure out why it is the way it is, and we want to get to the root cause and all the things. And we definitely, I know Remy and I, we tend to want to have these intellectual conversations about it. And those also aren't always very fruitful. So again, we can do that, but we can only do it for so much time and then done.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (32:04):

Yeah, and you can decide, you and your child can decide together what does seem like enough time and what starts creeping into way too much time,

Julie Withrow (Host) (32:13):

Right? There's a point where it becomes counterproductive, and I think we all kind of know when that happens. So if we can identify what amount of time that is, and then, yeah, that's the cutoff time.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (32:25):

And a child with intrusive or obsessive thoughts is not necessarily going to know when that time is. You might need to help them. And that's what I'm saying about this is a skill. So they have to learn how to have that kind of brain and what works for them and what doesn't. And to notice without judgment, you can help them by noticing without judgment. This seems to make your anxiety worse. It's not that you're wrong. It's not that you're making a mistake. It's just something I'm observing. We should be aware of that when we're trying to help you take care of it.

Julie Withrow (Host) (32:55):

Yeah. So you mentioned how it's important for parents not to blame themselves in all this. I think it is very easy as a parent to want to take on some sort of blame or guilt for why your child is the way they are, regardless of what that is. I know I struggled with that a lot, just feeling like I somehow, and that could be my own anxiety, I somehow have all this control over how my child is, so this must be my fault somehow. And I know that you feel very strongly about wanting to reassure parents that they don't have blame and responsibility for this. And so for parents who are just starting out or maybe just at the beginning of a journey of helping their child deal with anxiety, how do you help them come to terms with that? Because I think that's what a lot of parents experienced in the beginning. I think they feel a lot of this responsibility for it. And if you've helped parents through that, what's some words of, I don't know, comfort or advice to kind help them realize that they really aren't in control of this experience for their child?

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (34:16):

Yeah. I think the big thing again to know is that these patterns, they don't get kids without anxious. Brain stuck. You cannot make a non-anxious person, a person who is not predisposed to anxiety. You cannot force them to be an anxious person. You can have two people be in the same car wreck and one gets PTSD and one doesn't because who knows? Brains are wild and they do things the way they're going to do them. So we are never to blame. However, we are responsible for how we respond to the child that we have been gifted. We are responsible for figuring that out. Again, as I said, I think that is sort of the big point. The big spiritual point of parenting is for us to grow into the people we are meant to be, and our children are offering that to us, and we get to keep trying because we are going to get it wrong sometimes.

(35:15):

I mean, the thing I beat myself up about is I was pretty harsh with my anxious daughter because I thought she was just being kind of ridiculous. I didn't recognize it as anxiety. Her intensity and the way that she presented it, it made me think like, oh my gosh, come on. Are you kidding me? And now I think, wow, no, she was really struggling. Does it help me feel guilty about that? No, unless it inspires me to go figure it out, which it did. So why keep looking back at all the ways I failed? I just keep trying to do better all the time. And talking to her about what I was doing before, that didn't work. It wasn't helpful. I apologize. And that is why I am now doing it this way, because I also want to model for her in relationships. We can take responsibility for our mistakes. We can move forward and try to be better because she's a human. She has relationships with other humans. She's also going to have to assess the way things are and reassess and change course. So we're setting that example too. And that's lovely.

Julie Withrow (Host) (36:23):

As a parent. I know I also experienced that, and I still struggle with it, to be honest. There are times where Remy is so anxious and it's hard for me not to react negatively to it, because it seems so dramatic. And I just like, wow, does everything have to be so dramatic? And you really have to take a step back and be like, okay, this is really, they don't have control over exactly how they're feeling in this moment. This is anxiety, and I know what it is, and I can be more empathetic to it. And I also have to remind myself of that sometimes in those really dramatic moments. And certainly before I really understood more about anxiety, I made a lot of mistakes that way. And I had to go back and be like, Hey, I'm sorry. But I'll also say, as parents, we have to forgive ourselves for that.

(37:15):

As you said, the thing I like to remind myself of is that I was doing the best I could in the moment with the information that I had. And that's how I tend to forgive myself. And then as I learn better, I do better. As I learn more, I can do better. But I do think it's natural for us to sometimes have these negative reactions to our kids when they do seem to be acting out. When it seems like the way they're acting is not proportional to what's going on. I think it's going to be natural if we don't really understand what's going on, that we're going to have not-great reactions to it. But as we learn more and we can do better, we can also forgive ourselves for those times. I did the same thing. I didn't really know.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (38:07):

Of course, they're also doing this when you're trying to cook dinner or trying to merge onto the freeway.

Julie Withrow (Host) (38:11):

Yes, it's always the worst possible time.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (38:13):

Yeah, exactly.

(38:14):

And the fact, I think that so many parents get annoyed with their kids, I think it is annoying, and the relationship must have room for us to be imperfect with each other, or how would we all survive that? And again, if you are frustrated with your child, that is an indicator that something's going on that you need help.

(38:36):

Not that your kid is bad and not that you're bad, that, oh my gosh, you guys are stuck somehow. So now is the time to maybe get another set of eyes on it to help you figure out how to untangle from it. 

Julie Withrow (Host) (38:48):

Yeah, exactly. That's great advice. So as we wrap up for listeners, especially because many people listening to this probably do have kids who either they know are dealing with anxiety or who they suspect may be, this process can be pretty messy. It can feel hard. So is there just any parting advice that you can share with parents who are dealing with this? Right, because it can be challenging.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (39:22):

Once you notice the patterns of avoidance, and once you start teasing your way out from them, you don't need to fix 'em all at once. In fact, I would recommend not fixing them all at once, but once you learn how to pull yourself away from them, that is something you will then know how to do and you can replicate it. So start small, wherever it feels accessible. Be really forgiving of yourself and your kid. Don't compare your progress to anybody else's progress because who cares? And just start working on how can I help my child go towards the things that scare them, however tiny those steps might be, and notice the successes of it, because it is hard work. The successes sometimes might seem small at the beginning, and they deserve celebration. This is tough. That's why we all get stuck in the patterns. They're really sticky. It's not just you.

Julie Withrow (Host) (40:22):

Yeah, I love that. It's baby steps, right? A lot of things. Well, thanks so much, Dawn. I think this has been a really great conversation. I think it's going to be really helpful to a lot of listeners. This anxiety thing is no joke. And when you're dealing with it as a parent and as a person, and as children, it's a lot. It's a lot to deal with. So I think that the conversation that we've had today is going to be really enlightening. So thank you again.

Dawn Friedman (Guest) (40:53):

I just loved having this conversation with you. Thanks so much.

Julie Withrow (Host) (40:59):

Thanks for tuning in to the Exceptional Girls Podcast. If you liked today's episode, it would mean the world to me. If you'd subscribe, leave a rating and review and recommend it to just one other person who you think would benefit from listening. Even a small act of support helps the podcast reach more people, which in turn helps increase awareness and understanding of exceptionality in girls. And if you have suggestions for future episodes, please share them. You can connect with me, your host, Julie Withrow, through our website at exceptionalgirlspodcast.com/contact.